Lebanon

[drscott]

Lots of news this morning. As usual, Lebanon's people are being dragged into war by external parties. They recently threw off the domination of Syria, but haven't been able to gain control over Hezbollah in the south -- Hezbollah has enough support to remain a tolerated faction. Now the financiers of terror (in this case, Iran) are getting their desired distraction in the form of a war on Israel, rockets have hit Haifa, and innocents on all sides are dying. To the extent that Israel has made some effort to avoid noncombatant casualties, I give them credit. But it's still tragic that Lebanon must suffer so that the hatreds of others can play out. I've been chatting with lebocub, who hopes it will blow over soon. Meanwhile, Beirut has been leafleted from the sky with warnings to avoid Hezbollah facilities.

This is ominous because it may trigger open warfare with Iran and a global crisis.

Comments

[markbuster.livejournal.com]

Yes- I don't think people understand how incredibly terrible this all is.
I'll tell you this, if I run into one fucking crunchy white chick with a "Israel out of Palestine" bumper sticker, I will not act rationally.

[pklexton.livejournal.com]

Yes, this does have a disturbingly worse-than-unusual, very bad feel to it. (Kind of like the feeling I had early on about the cartoon crisis).

Unfortunately with the current crowd in charge Washington I am not very confident of their crisis management capabilities. The only area in which they excel seems to be to manipulate crises to serve pre-existing agendas of their constituency. So that adds another element of fuel for the fire. Usually intervention from the White House is the most likely way these things get defused. This White House has credibility only on one side of the dispute.

[friendofjack.livejournal.com]

The only area in which they excel seems to be to manipulate crises to serve pre-existing agendas of their constituency.

Don't forget that this administration also has another area of excellence: making things worse than they were before.

We should tell the Syrians that if they don't straighten up and start acting right, we'll invade their country and mismanage it.

[furfairy.livejournal.com]

Oops. That anonymous comment linking to the Objective Standard was mine.

[dr-scott.livejournal.com]

SomeLebanese people support Hezbollah. You are quite correct that international law supports retaliation against Lebanon for acts of war from within its territory by forces who have tacit approval of the government.

[pklexton.livejournal.com]

Counselor, isn't an element of proportionality part of that principle?

I wish either side in this dispute cared about international law. The actors on both sides of this situation have the same moral ethos of their tribal ancestors that haven't changed for thousands of years. An eye for an eye, killing for honor, revenge, etc. Except they have modern toys.

[dr-scott.livejournal.com]

"International Law" is just a vague set of principles and treaty obligations, since there is no overriding state to enforce it (UN fanboys should be aware that an entity with no control over armed forces or courts with teeth is not a government.) Proportionality is something we can talk about and criticize over, but not firm enough to call law. The only firm rules have to do with avoiding unecessary damage to noncombatants, and even that's very subjective.

[pklexton.livejournal.com]

Any legal system worth its salt has to incorporate a concept of proportionality when permitting a response to aggression. Note that most domestic Western civil law does not permit retaliation; self-defense is of course authorized but only to the extent necessary to neutralize the threat and no more.

[excessor.livejournal.com]

For quite a long time, I've been fairly critical of Israel's foreign policy and its treatment of the Palestinians. (Although, to be fair, I note that no one else is rushing to their aid, either.) But I find myself supporting Israel's retaliation against military and paramilitary forces that bombard its territories.

I agree that the ominous part is the threat of a regional conflict whose effects have a global impact. The possibility of nuclear conflict makes it even worse, especially for the people who are weary after so many decades of conflict.

[orange-groves.livejournal.com]

As someone pointed out, Israel pulled out of Gaza last year and gave control to the Palestinians as part of the peace process. Rather than start building Gaza into something, Palestians use the area to shoot rockets at Israel.

I do not have any sympathy for Palestinians any longer. They voted Hamas in, they can suffer their consequences.

And truly, saying it is unfair to view Lebanon as bad just because of the group Hezbollah is like saying it is unfair to hate the United States because of a small group of neoconservatives in power started a war in Iraq.

[markbuster.livejournal.com]

I completly agree with this.

The Palestinians have not behaved in a way that makes me want to run to their aide.

And the Lebonese army stands shoulder to shoulder with Hezbolah. Well, you know what... that makes Lebenon an enemy of Israel, who has the goal of continuing to exist.

Other Muslim nations have long treated Palestinians as the one legged step son, this didn't start with Israel.

Sorry that last anonymous was me.

[orange-groves.livejournal.com]

oops

Re: Sorry that last anonymous was me.

[markbuster.livejournal.com]

1) There is a difference between Nations and Gangs. Yes, if the US were wokring with and harboring enemies of Canada, Canada would have grounds for corrective action. Thats why we have extradition with most civilized governments. Israel can't have one with Lebanon, since they don't acknowledge the existance of Israel.
2) Hezbolah did not run accross the border to Lebanon to hide out; they are ensconced in that soceity, and embraced by the military of Lebanon.
3) It needs to be unsafe to associate with Hezbolah. Nations that associate with them don't have the right to working airports, clean water, or safe bridges.
4) The people taking it up the ass, as usual, are the poor and working poor-- the ones making the mistakes are higher up, and don't suffer the same pains.

[tdjohnsn.livejournal.com]

Do you read Michael Totten's blog? He has written a great deal about lebanon (he lived there for six months earlier this year) and interviewed people on both sides of the border. Lebanon sounds like a wonderful place which makes this all doubly sad.

[dr-scott.livejournal.com]

Yes, I've seen his work. It's unlikely to satisfy team sport players who want to see Bush as the source of all trouble in the Middle East or armchair generals who want to nuke innocents to take out the loud minority of haters. That is, he's balanced. :)

[pklexton.livejournal.com]

That's fascinating. Particularly his link today to an interview with Mark Perry.

OK, I'll stop hogging all the space on Dr. Scott's post now.